‘Winning Time’: Michael Chiklis and Sean Patrick Small Talk Bringing Humanity to Larry Bird’s Villain Origin Story

SPOILER ALERT: This article discusses the Episode 3 of HBOs Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty Season 2, now streaming on Max.

After being unceremoniously bounced in the first round of the 1981 NBA playoffs, the spirits of the Los Angeles Lakers sink even further in the cold open of this weeks Winning Time. Unable to defend the championship, the team can only seethe in their living rooms as they watch the dreaded Boston Celtics take home gold.

But the indignity doesnt stop there. The newly crowned champs dont just snag the title from the Lakers; they practically hijack the HBO series for an episode. While the Los Angeles organization licks its wounds, a series of flashbacks interrupt the aftermath, stretching the frame to widescreen and sending viewers to 1970s Indiana, telling the story of a young man named Larry Bird (Sean Patrick Small) who went up to Boston to become a Lakers killer.

Compared to the seediness and glamour thats been the bread and butter of Winning Time, these tangents possess a more modest, focused tone that matches Birds undaunted constitution. After the suicide of his father upends Birds life, an assistant coach at Indiana State University discovers the young players talents and implores him to return to the game: Nobody gets to be as great as you are at this thing unless they love it. Why are you acting like you dont?

Hes pushing away that thing that he thought was the reason for the tragic loss of his dad, Small says, speaking with Variety. Dropping out of Indiana University and coming back home, it was in that period where thats always in the back of his mind: Was I the reason that my father committed suicide?'

Sean Patrick Small as Larry Bird in Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty. HBO A final flashback reveals how Celtics general manager Red Auerbach (Michael Chiklis) ultimately convinced Bird to go pro. The organizations mastermind had taken a risk by drafting Bird as a junior, setting aside an unprecedented rookie salary to bring him to Boston a year later. Though Bird plays hard- to-get at first, Auerbach cuts the small-talk and speaks directly to the young players core principles: You dont love winning so much as you hate to lose. Youre a Celtic. A dynasty is born.

Speaking together with Variety before the SAG-AFTRA strike, Small and Chiklis discussed bringing Larry Birds origin story to the screen and why the Celtics maybe arent such bad guys.

Im talking to the Sith lords of the show.

SEAN PATRICK SMALL: I think Michael might have something to say about that.

Michael, do you want to comment?

MICHAEL CHIKLIS: Thats an interesting characterization. Usually when someones rooting for either the Yankees or the Lakers, I think to myself, Oh, so you go to Star Wars and shout Go Darth? Those folks represent the evil empire to me.

There are heroes on both sides.

SMALL: Were figuring that out in these interviews. Thats the whole thing. Everyones coming in swinging at us.

CHIKLIS: I havent figured out shit! Boston is better!

Sean, youve shared before that you optioned your own Larry Bird project before being cast in the series. Were you able to bring any of that original vision into this season?

SMALL: I was definitely able to bring that into the episode. The series that I had written was from his senior year of high school to being a senior in college, so the flashbacks I could definitely go into and have fun with. Bird coming back from Indiana hes a little more youthful, a little more pep in his step. Hes not the hard-nosed dude that we know on the Celtics. Being able to peel those layers back, and then show why those layers of hardness were added to the character, it all came together in such a profound fashion, because of the script that I wrote and the writing on that episode.

I imagine it was tough to play in jeans.

SMALL: Its harder. Its definitely one of those things where we were rehearsing and some of the other basketball guys would come in for another rehearsal and be like, Why are you wearing jeans right now? They found out soon.

Michael, you enter at the end of the episode. Red Auerbach visits the Bird household and offers a foundation to a young man who seems adrift. How did you find the line between straight-talking businessman and a warm, guiding undertone?

CHIKLIS: Thats pretty common, particularly among great coaches and their players, that there is a paternal, fatherly instinct. You form a bond and a love for your players. Its not just about what you want out of them, and what you want for yourself: Its very much about seeing them become the best that they can be. If you look at Auerbachs record, you dont reach that kind of success without having incredible instincts about psychology, but also by really deeply caring, in a way that is palpable and completely transparent.

Michael Chiklis as Red Auerbach in Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty. HBO Ive read a bunch of books about Red Auerbach, and it is very clear: The men who played for him adored him. People who played against him hated him. That seems to me that youre doing something right. He knew who Larry was. Whats the best way for me to get him to come to us? Its not just for my own self-interest, but also for him. I believe I can get him to flourish here. I believe that he really is a quintessential Celtic. Hes the absolute representative of the blue-collar work ethic the guy who leaves late after everybody else has gone. He saw that fire in him, ignited by the loss of his father.

SMALL: That was a fun scene to play. Its a standoff in the beginning. Theres a respect that Bird already had for Red, but it elevated his respect for him, which then opened up this empathy that he saw from Red. Red wants Bird to flourish. He wants him to be the best person he can be. Bird sees that as the opportunity to have this figure that he can confide in, which you see down the line in the series as well.

CHIKLIS: I cant wait to see that scene. Weve not seen it.

They let me watch it! Why havent you seen it?

CHIKLIS: We havent seen anything. Sometimes you walk away from a scene, without having seen it, and you think, I cant wait to see that. That worked in the room.

Well, it worked on the screen.

CHIKLIS: OK, good. I was looking for a compliment!

This conversation has been edited and condensed.